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Tiger damages green, and dosen't repair


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#31 skinkman

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 09:48 AM

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My only tip would be to watch out for the cows, horses, and sheep on your way to the course....lol
we have enough of those in MD and VA:) .. thanks buddy....

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#32 simon T

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 10:10 AM

It makes no difference to me who did what. A PGA touring professional is bound by certain standards of play and levels of etiquette toward both fans and playing competitors. It is wrong to damage the golf course under any circumstances. It is also appalingly inconsiderate to your playing competitor and others behind you. It doesn't matter the ammount or severity of the damage... damage is damage and its wrong. The game might well be changing as cjcdaman says. To me its not changing so much as deteriorating. Others on this thread have said that club throwing, spitting, bag kicking, cursing and fist pumping are signs of passion and emotion (well, maybe not the spitting). My take on it is these are signs of passion and emotion that men with control and self discipline keep in controll with self discipline. Wish Earl was strong enough to take his belt to Tiger's butt.   Simon.

#33 hackdaddy

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 10:31 AM

I play a lot of public courses and newbies seeing that kind of behaviour by TW ( any of the other top guys really) is a bad example. A lot of the players I end up around that are new to the game seem to have enough trouble understanding golf etiquette without the most visible figure in the game setting a poor example. Without seeing the green itself I wouldn't say there should be a penalty. (there is a lot of incedental damage done in fairways, greens, etc. by a lot of players being careless, where do you draw the line) I would however like to see TW mention this as he casts such a long shadow in all things golf related including behaviour.
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#34 dachtor

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 10:47 AM

djbates - I agree with you on the fist pumping. In fact, when people ask me why I don't like Tiger, that's the reason I give........  it's the IN YOUR FACE stuff that I think is way out of line. This weekend with all the replays of the 99 US Open reminded me of why I liked Payne so much. That subtle gesture he made after drilling that putt on 16 was about the coolest thing I've ever seen........ Especially when you compare it to a Tiger running fist pump as he stomps across the green..... or a Sergio squatting eyes closed fist pump.....:rolleyes:

#35 SC200

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 10:56 AM

I have never seen a player actually damage a green before.  Stunning.


#36 cjcdaman

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 11:59 AM

I admit damaging a green is uncalled for, but fist pumping is harmless. Maybe that's why some pros have trouble beating Tiger. They can't handle the IN YOUR FACE stuff. Get over it and get even. That's how you handle that. And Sergio's "squatting eyes closed fist pump?????" You have got to be kidding me. This isn't 1920. You act like when a player sinks a huge putt that puts him in contention or anything to that effect, he should just pick his ball out of the cup and walk to the next tee. Sorry 'bout your luck. It isn't like that and won't ever be like that. I'm sure you can take your frustration over this petty stuff to Martha Burk. She'll love to help you out. She has nothing else better to do, but bitch and moan.
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#37 bondwiz

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 12:10 PM

Breaking a sprinkler head at Bay Hill and he's considered one of the most classy players on tour. This is just more tiger bashing, he got p.o'd..wasn't the first, won't be the last

#38 jaw2000

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 12:22 PM

But damaging the playing surface in a major no less - is not simply waived away - unless you are tiger woods. And to pretend that it's no big deal and make seem like the virtually harmless fist pumping is, frankly myopic and stupid. fist pumping is nothing in the me me me age. damaging the putting surface - at all, let alone in the middle of a major - he should have been DQ'ed. one is simply poor sportsmanship, the other is simply 'put me on sports center.'

#39 bondwiz

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 12:37 PM

The rules are the rules. It shoudn't matter if its the US open or the quad cities classic. And while I agree that what he did was wrong, if it was done by a less famous player (say dan Forsman) no one would care and we wouldn't know about it as it wouldn't have it been shown.  No one would have known about Sabbatini except that he was in the later groups. If he's the first group out, no one would know and we wouldn't care.

#40 jaw2000

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 01:05 PM

if it was one of the second tier players, they'd have likely been dq'ed or immediately penalized. and the sabbatini thing as it was so unsportsmanlike would have been aired out regardless - and mind you i understand that he was frustrated, but there is right and not right. it takes a big person to understand that. tiger loses esteem with each of these childlike tantrums that he produces. and you are right about one thing. major or not, he should have been dq'ed but unlike david stern of the NBA, the powers of golf don't have the cojones to mess with tiger.


#41 hackdaddy

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 01:27 PM

I think a DQ is excessive but an apology should have been forthcoming and it wasn't. If when asked about the incident in the post round interview TW had indicated it was a real breach I would say no harm no foul but he shrugged it off and even semi joked about it and that was wrong on his part. I know a lot of sports figures discount their responsibility to be role models and I understand that no one is perfect but the greater the power and position the greater the burden and no one else holds TWs power and position. It may not be fair that his every move is scrutinized but it's just part of the deal. He could always come to my local muni and play for $2 nassuas if it is too much for him.
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#42 dachtor

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 01:32 PM

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Originally posted by cjcdaman I admit damaging a green is uncalled for, but fist pumping is harmless. Maybe that's why some pros have trouble beating Tiger. They can't handle the IN YOUR FACE stuff. Get over it and get even. That's how you handle that. And Sergio's "squatting eyes closed fist pump?????" You have got to be kidding me. This isn't 1920. You act like when a player sinks a huge putt that puts him in contention or anything to that effect, he should just pick his ball out of the cup and walk to the next tee. Sorry 'bout your luck. It isn't like that and won't ever be like that. I'm sure you can take your frustration over this petty stuff to Martha Burk. She'll love to help you out. She has nothing else better to do, but bitch and moan.
Relax, take a deep breath..........I'm not losing any sleep over it and I'm not going to call Martha. I'm just stating why I happen to dislike the actions of those 2 players. Clearly I touched a nerve though...........

#43 Cheap Clubs Rob

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 01:58 PM

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Originally posted by cjcdaman They can't handle the IN YOUR FACE stuff. Get over it and get even.
Yeah, let's all start making noise during an opponent's backswing and walking across the green when they're putting.  If someone complains, just tell them to get over it and get even. :rolleyes:    Tiger's open-mouthed fist pumping is just classless gamesmanship.  Golf doesn't need any "IN YOUR FACE" crap.
    

#44 MarkCPA

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 02:06 PM

It's interesting to me that Miller was actually encouraging Goosen to show more enthusiasm or "fist pumping" type stuff after he made that huge putt on 18 on Saturday.    Hicks was quick to respond with (paraphrasing), "that's just not who he is".      Tiger fist pumping after he makes a big putt or pointing at the hole doesn't bother me in the least as long as he's not taunting someone.      He's done some silly stuff with the F-bombs and slamming clubs to the ground, but he's never gotten out of line with reactions to holed putts to me.    I don't mind seeing any player show some excitement when he's made a big putt like what Daly did this season during the Texas swing or Stewart's fist in the air reaction to making the big putt at Pinehurst in 1999.     Heck, I know I get excited when I drain one, but that's just because I make so few of them that there really is a reason for me to celebrate!     ;)
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#45 GeorgeM

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 02:32 PM

I saw what Woods did. While the USGA did talk to him, I think the PGAT should also do something.  Though not a PGAT event, as a PGAT member, Woods' actions reflect on the TOUR. However, even though it was not obvious that Woods adequately repaired his handiwork and NBC declared he did not, there have been no reports of complaints from groups that followed. Questions: Was Woods' repair adequate? Did someone else repair his damage? Did his action interfere with putts from groups that followed? Did Woods leave the green damaged or not? If Woods repaired the damage, I can see little cause for severe action. However, if the green required additional attention, then Woods warrants additional disciplinary action.

    

#46 jimmygolfer

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 04:04 PM

Very bad behaviour by any player.  Just as bad, no more, and no less, if done by Tiger.  Fist-pumping is ok, but what he did is not. "I think everything that Tiger does gets magnified so when I do see it and I don't fall out of my chair gasping for breath because like always it was blown out of proportion by all the Tiger Haters".   You're wrong - this is the standard apologist statement we hear after all of Tiger's poor behaviours.  It is NOT that he is under a magnifying glass and gets over-scrutinised for everything he does.   Other player's caddies do not attack fans and take their camera when they take pictures in their backswing (and yes, fans do take pictures of other players).  They don't slam their driver into the teebox markers, they don't scrape their putters over greens, and they don't fail to apologise when an apology is in order - they invariably do.   It is becoming increasingly clear that another set of standards attach to Tiger by (i) his die-hard adoring fans; and (ii) the PGA Tour.  And golf across the US is the poorer for it because many newer players who do not recognise this as bad bahaviour because it's the only behaviour they've seen, believe this makes their similar conduct acceptable. There are three arguments at work here: (i) he is a role model, and so should adhere to the highest standards:  Well Tiger himself doesn't believe in this argument and has made no secret of it - and maybe in this era he can have a pass on that, although in previous eras that would have been frowned on - with the gift you've got, the money you make, the adulation you inspire particularly among the young or impressionable, comes the responsibility to the game and the fans.  But maybe that's too much expectation for the man trained to be more disciplined than any others by his marine father.  So let's give him a pass on that. (ii) He should adhere to the same standards as everyone else:  Hard to disagree with this, and he is failing to do so.   (iii) He should get special treatment because he's Tiger:  This seems to be the argument many of his fans use. Personally I think letting him out of (i) is giving him a break, but it's understandable.  Letting him out of (ii) is a failure by the PGA Tour and the media to uphold even basic respect for the game and its rules, which the PGA tour specifically is supposed to uphold and protect on behalf of all of us.  And arguing for (iii) indicates a genuine belief that he actually IS greater than the game, and that in turn shows an absence of intellectual rigour and blind idol-worship even in these celebrity-obsessed times. In 10 years when we're all lamenting the decline of standards in a game that once separated itself from almost all others by its standard of conduct, I believe you will be able to trace it back to Tiger.  He is the biggest ever, bigger than Arnie in terms of viewership, and has a consequently greater impact.  In addition, the PGA tour just lost its right, LEGAL and otherwise, to impose any criticism or fine on any PGA Tour player for teebox abuse and club-slamming, bad behaviour by a caddie, and now green scraping.  Come down on another player for this and their LEGAL defence is that the rules, and etiquette obligations are not being applied fairly, and the PGA tour's discretion under the rules is being applied in a manner which is a breach of natural justice.  Expect to see more of this behaviour from others - they've now got a license to do it. This incident has been bad for golf.  The only aspect which saves it is that many in the media have called this out as unacceptable, and just maybe, this will be enough to persuade impressionable minds, or those who only started the game in the Tiger era, that it genuinely was unacceptable.  It's also great to see so many people on this board recognising this for what it was.
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#47 hackdaddy

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 04:21 PM

I don't know if a lot of the other players do this sort of thing or not. My guess is some do and some don't. I do know that if the guy in front of me during my Sat. round did the same I would mention it to the ranger and expect some sort of action. It doesn't matter how big a check they are playing for or which trophy, the game is still the game and the rules are still the rules.
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#48 cjcdaman

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 05:54 PM

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Yeah, let's all start making noise during an opponent's backswing and walking across the green when they're putting. If someone complains, just tell them to get over it and get even.
We are talking about fist pumping after making a big putt, not talking during someone's backswing! Yeah, golf would be a blast to watch if no one had a personality and just picked the ball out of the cup. "Oh well, a 45 foot bender for eagle in the center of the cup. No big deal."
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#49 blkjazz

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 06:59 PM

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However, if the green required additional attention, then Woods warrants additional disciplinary action.
I too recall something about Davis Love killing a sprinkler head  few years ago. I think it was at Bay Hill. I do not remember any calls for him to be "disciplined" as has been suggested regarding Tiger. If some action was taken against Davis, does anyone know what was done? If no action was taken, then why should Tiger be treated differently?
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#50 jaw2000

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 07:19 PM

And, to be fair, it is also poor judgement on DL's part. But to elevate a sprinkler head to damaging a green is not the same thing.  The green is very likely (from that range) to be in play for every subsequent competitor, not so the sprinkler head - all things considered, and for that matter, if a ball came to rest at the head, would the player not get relief?


#51 GeorgeM

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 11:34 PM

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Originally posted by blkjazz I too recall something about Davis Love killing a sprinkler head  few years ago. I think it was at Bay Hill. I do not remember any calls for him to be "disciplined" as has been suggested regarding Tiger. If some action was taken against Davis, does anyone know what was done? If no action was taken, then why should Tiger be treated differently?
In addition to whatever confidential action the PGA TOUR took, Love paid for replacememt of the sprinkler head. What the PGAT does about Woods we will not know.  The TOUR does not say and so far Woods has been quiet about his fines.
    

#52 brannyxx

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 12:48 AM

This is one of the best policies amongst professional sports and that is , They just don't air their dirty laundry.  In the day and age in which everyone likes to report fines and who is doing this and that. I think that the PGA Tour of America is doing a great service to society as a whole, in not perpetuating a negative situation, so that the press can have more ammunition.  It keeps its business behind closed doors, as well it should.
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#53 blkjazz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:20 AM

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I think that the PGA Tour of America is doing a great service to society as a whole, in not perpetuating a negative situation, so that the press can have more ammunition. It keeps its business behind closed doors, as well it should.
So we can now conclude that this thread is a waste of time and energy. The Tour, we can assume, has or will take whatever action is indicated privately and hopefully fairly. All this talk about Tiger being treated better than other players is just that...idol talk by uninformed folk. Good. :cool:
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#54 jaw2000

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:30 AM

However, as this was a USGA event and NOT a PGA tour event (if I have that right), it may not be that simple. If memory serves there are potential ramifications to what happened and basically they were not followed - that is penalty situations duing play that could have been imposed? A fine is all well and good - but that does nothing to solve the real problem, and that is prima donnas who feel that they can either get away with anything, or simply have a slap on the wrist fine that has no real value to them or society. Like it or not, Tiger by virtue of his shilling everything except underwear (MJ does that), and his play, makes him a role model - like it or not.  And, the next time I see someone do what he did, bet on that person being invited to leave the course and not return. See, there is right and wrong, and you can bet his father and mother - taught him this.  But now, he is loaded and I guess it just don't matter no more.

#55 hackdaddy

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 07:06 AM

I don't really care if TW or Davis were fined, penalized or whatever. It really wasn't an issue to following groups and probably looked worse than it was. My only real issue is that TW laughed it off at the post round. Something as simple as "I shouldn't have done that" would suffice for me. I just think TW and all these guys need to realize they are being watched. TW is far from the worst offender, (P. Perez in my opinion right now although Sabitini and the Levin kid might give him a run) but he is the biggest name with the most influence. A simple statement to young fans like "hey I made a mistake there" would go a long way. When a guy like Perez throws a little fit the commentators call him out and the poor behaviour is noted by all. If a commentator calls TW out his popularity is such that his fans come down on the commentator as a "hater". TW does a lot with charities, his foundation etc. but he also must realize the level of his influence. All those big corporations paying TW seven figure sums to promote their products realize how influential he is, he needs to realize it to.

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#56 Cheap Clubs Rob

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 08:43 PM

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Originally posted by blkjazz So we can now conclude that this thread is a waste of time and energy. The Tour, we can assume, has or will take whatever action is indicated privately and hopefully fairly. All this talk about Tiger being treated better than other players is just that...idol talk by uninformed folk. Good. :cool:
Yeah, but what do you think about what Tiger did?
    



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