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A prediction


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#1 latigo3

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 01:36 PM

I have a prediction. (As like my opinions worth little or nothing, but) If the powers that be do not take measures to redirect this game from nothing but crushing drives and wedge play and back to focusing on shot making skills, the PGA Tour  is going to be relegated to the pages of history. Like the weather, all they do is talk about it. For years I watched these tournaments with passion. No more. Seeing a wedge shot from 100 yards out preceded by a 325 yard drive and ending up 50 to 60 feet from an unguarded cup placement does not hold my interest. And even with the far and few between tough courses you’re met with 50% to 60% divided among commercials, boring interviews, inane booth commentary and Tiger Wood “highlights”. Sax

    

#2 CamdenLions

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 05:35 PM

The problem with your theory is that you are an old guy. Old guys drop off the earth everyday, so the number of guys similar to you who prefer the old days of shotmaking continue to dwindle each day. The new breed of kids, which greatly outnumber the old guys, love to see the long ball on both TV and in person at the tournament. They don't care if all they see is a bomb and gouge game. Ben Hogan? Byron Nelson? Sam Snead? Most of those kids have heard little about them and really couldn't care less. Like or not, that's the predominant demographics of golf fans these days and thats the direction golf has ventured over the past few years. Therefore, the tour will be just fine since its marketing efforts are aimed at a larger population than golf purists. :p (just yankin' yer chain, saxie) __________________ :
Coach Tub -  Best Damn Coach In The Land! Go Tigers!

#3 roydjt

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 06:05 PM

I miss the sights, sounds, and smells of the old style of golf.  Leather grips, balata balls, grass with no nasty chemicals, my grandpa always smelled like that and I never knew why until I started to play golf.  The trajectory of a well-struck four-wood that goes out, rises up, turns over, and lays down is a thing of beauty, as is that sweet *thwack!*.  But those are relics of the past, unfortunately.  The equipment has changed in the interest of progress in such a way that the old style of golf has now been relegated to the film clips of the past.  Yeah, I miss it, but I also appreciate the new game with today's equipment. Solid core balls don't want to do what the old balls did.  Today's drivers make it all but impractical to maneuver the ball much off the tee.  And the development of the modern athlete has turned professional golf from a game that was 80% finesse and 20% power to a game that is more like 50/50.  In the sixties, a tall golfer like George Archer was an anomaly.  Today, it seems that at least one guy in each PGA Tour foursome looks like he could have played defensive back in an NCAA D1 football program due to his natural size and his developed athletic physique.  Golf is big money, and golfers are intelligent enough to know that they must optimize their bodies, and wealthy enough to use the benefits of nutritionists and physical trainers.   Golf has changed.  Golfers have changed.  Golf courses have changed.  Golf equipment has changed.  The only thing that really hasn't changed is the rulebook and the spirit of the casual game.  But professional golf has become something far different than it was twenty years ago, and there is no going back.  You can't roll the equipment back, and the fame and money has drawn athletes like Ernie Els, who could have been a world-class tennis or rugby player, but now uses that massive frame to crush a 1.68 oz spheroid for millions of dollars.   Sax, you need to accept the change and welcome what the game of professional golf has become.  The beauty is still there.  Tiger Woods, a golfer touted for his power game, is successful because of the finesse and wisdom that he possesses.  He doesn't win because he can hit it so far, he wins because he can hit it so close so consistently, and he can get the ball in the hole.  His greatest talents reside between his ears and in his hands, where the finesse resides, not in his sholders or his legs, or everywhere else he gets that power from.   -Roy
Nicklaus DPT460 9º, Grafalloy Blue ProLaunch (S)
Nicklaus 35-s #3+ 13.5º, Fujikura SG Pro (S)
Adams GT #4 17º, True Temper GT (S)
Adams A2 hybrid #3 20º, True Temper GT (S)
Maxfli A-10 3-PW, TT Dynamic Gold S-300
Cleveland 588 RTG 53º & 60º
Spalding TP Mills Tour Series # 15 putter
all in an Ogio Grom golf bag.

#4 latigo3

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 06:29 PM

Please justify your clouded vision of the commercial demographics here by explaining why this week CBS did NOT sell spots for body tattooing and piercing, hip huggers, tank shirts, skull caps, cheap hooded pull overs, chains, used denims, Ipods, MTV, etc., etc.,  BUT RATHER exclusively to: Buick luxury cars Mercedes Benz North West Mutual Investments The Royal Bank of Scotland   Boeing FLOMAX and LIPITOR Do you know a lot of the “the new breed of kids” driving around in new 4-door Buicks, have investment accounts with NW Mutual, hold Boeing stock, or in need of Flomax for undisturbed sleep, or are cueing up to be prescribed Liptor to “maintain a healthy heart”?  I think not. Sax A chain has two ends.
    

#5 KeilwerthSX90R

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 08:07 PM

I agree with you Sax. I also don't think you would have to roll back technology to get rid of bomb and gauge. At most tournaments there is no penalty for missing the fairway. Narrow the fairways, and get legit rough. If players only had a 50/50 change at being able to land and hold a ball on the green from the rough it would change their strategy. If you can hit it 320 and hit a lot of fairways, so be it. But Tiger only 21% of the fairways on Saturday and 43% on Sunday and still had two great rounds. Tiger will adjust his game and continue to dominate as will others and it will be a better game to watch.

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#6 CamdenLions

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 08:43 PM

Which goes to prove that you're even an anamoly among the old fogeys, Sax, since your that demographic market MUST ALSO be watching, with the exclusion of you of course.  Have fun alone in your cave.  The other old fogeys must be enjoying the bomb and gouge golf more than fantasy shotmaking golf of the early ages.  Perhaps you have more in common with Larry and Gene Littler than any could have ever imagined!!!!  :p
Coach Tub -  Best Damn Coach In The Land! Go Tigers!

#7 latigo3

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 10:02 PM

I give up. No way can I compete with such nimble-witted eloquence. Sax
    

#8 supermariodave

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 05:40 AM

I agree,however,I have long since held the view that many PGA events are exceptionally dull,so I've stopped watching them.However the European Tour play on varied courses set up to test,and wathcing Goosen win with an eagle down a 630 yard par 5 18th was glorious and I'm looking forward to watching him have a go at Tiger this year,same with Els coming back to form.

#9 pmo

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 02:18 AM

As an old fogy I must agree with Sax - modern PGA tour golf on TV is just so damn boring! In addition you in the States have to put up with the constant interruptions for ads that we thankfully are shielded from - instead we get a high pitched voice telling us what we can see anyway courtesy of the PGA. The only tournaments really worth watching are the majors (except the Masters which is played over the most tricked up course - greens like glass - to "protect the integrity of the course". While I enjoy using modern equipment, I don't enjoy watching the pros taking great courses apart as a result of a ball that really goes too far. The result has been a sad change in course design where the c**p that Pete Dye has designed with gimmicks everywher has become the norm. I have no problem with the athleticism of the new generation and admire their dedication and ability - however, I think that the powers that be could take a leaf out of Wimbledon's book and change the ball for tour events.
    

#10 roydjt

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 09:14 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with the TV coverage comments.  Too many commercials, too much fluff and filler, and not enough golf.  While I would like to have better commentators, that really doesn't matter a whole lot to me.  But when every day's show has to include a twenty-minute video essay or an interview in a quiet office, I have to switch the channel.  I want to see what is happening on the course! While I think that it's too late to roll back the technology, I think that the courses can be better prepared to challenge the players and put the precision back into the game.  Simply grow the rough and narrow the fairways.  There comes a point where a wedge from the rough is a tougher shot than a 7-iron from the fairway.  Lengthening the courses only makes them tougher for the shorter hitters.  If accuracy is at a premium, that brings a lot of players back into the mix. -Roy

Nicklaus DPT460 9º, Grafalloy Blue ProLaunch (S)
Nicklaus 35-s #3+ 13.5º, Fujikura SG Pro (S)
Adams GT #4 17º, True Temper GT (S)
Adams A2 hybrid #3 20º, True Temper GT (S)
Maxfli A-10 3-PW, TT Dynamic Gold S-300
Cleveland 588 RTG 53º & 60º
Spalding TP Mills Tour Series # 15 putter
all in an Ogio Grom golf bag.

#11 GolfTragic

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 10:44 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Roydjt I agree wholeheartedly with the TV coverage comments.  Too many commercials, too much fluff and filler, and not enough golf.  While I would like to have better commentators, that really doesn't matter a whole lot to me.  But when every day's show has to include a twenty-minute video essay or an interview in a quiet office, I have to switch the channel.  I want to see what is happening on the course! While I think that it's too late to roll back the technology, I think that the courses can be better prepared to challenge the players and put the precision back into the game.  Simply grow the rough and narrow the fairways.  There comes a point where a wedge from the rough is a tougher shot than a 7-iron from the fairway.  Lengthening the courses only makes them tougher for the shorter hitters.  If accuracy is at a premium, that brings a lot of players back into the mix. -Roy
A great idea!  Why not split the fairways in two by growing the rough across the fairway for 60 yds from the 300 yd mark or put bunkers across from rough to rough.  Then they'd have to pick a spot and hit it. Tiger will still win.  He's a magician from any distance or lie.  Wasn't it Earl Woods who suggested that if they want to fix this problem they should shorten the holes and make it target golf? BTW: Sad about the TV coverage.  Is it just me or does Faldo look embarrassed? Fortunately, I record to hard disk and get through 3 hrs of golf in around 1 hr.
I envy people who drink.  At least they have something to blame everything on.   

#12 roydjt

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 12:57 AM

I agree.  Tiger has all the tools.  He would be my pick on a pitch-and-putt, mini-golf, anywhere when the stakes are high.  I enjoy watching him win.  I don't know why anybody who is a fan of golf would not.  Personally, I prefer strategic golf to driver-wedge-ten-footer all day.  Look at what Tiger did at the British last year - he strategized his way around the course, avoided the obstacles, and prevailed due to his mental focus.  That was phenomenal golf, and just one element of what makes him great. -Roy
Nicklaus DPT460 9º, Grafalloy Blue ProLaunch (S)
Nicklaus 35-s #3+ 13.5º, Fujikura SG Pro (S)
Adams GT #4 17º, True Temper GT (S)
Adams A2 hybrid #3 20º, True Temper GT (S)
Maxfli A-10 3-PW, TT Dynamic Gold S-300
Cleveland 588 RTG 53º & 60º
Spalding TP Mills Tour Series # 15 putter
all in an Ogio Grom golf bag.

#13 latigo3

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 02:14 PM

Dave and Roy: Just one last thought. A comment from the booth by Ken Venturi remains indelible with me. Perhaps it was ten years ago or more where at Hilton Head, S. C., he made mention that the players were hitting wedges to the same par fours that “we were using 4 and 5 irons”. And there are few players today whose talent compares with his. His long time friend McLean says that Venturi was the best shot maker he had ever seen. I recorded to hard drive the last 1 ½ hours of TGC’s coverage of Friday’s round at Scottsdale – latter zapped through it and deleted it. However I will say that it had more tee to green coverage than the major networks normally provide. But there is a hell of lot more disturbing things going on in the world than this. Enjoyed your comments, as always. Sax
    

#14 roydjt

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 05:00 PM

So, what do you propose be done that can make the PGA Tour players hit the same shots into those holes that Venturi did?  The equipment has changed dramatically, and today's golfers are better athletes than they were back then. If you made all of the players use 1960's era equipment, I would bet that they would still be a couple of clubs longer than the players from back then.  Today's professional golfers are bigger, stronger, more flexible, and have more polished techniques.   Add to that the improvements in agronomy with firmer fairways and shorter grass and they would be even longer compared to the pros of yore. I'm all for nostalgia, but this is just the advancement of progress.   If I were director of the USGA twenty years ago, knowing what I know now, I would do two things: One, I would reduce the maximum velocity mark that was set in place.  Solid-core balls were bound to take over eventually, but if the core was limited, that would keep distance down.  Two, I would limit clubhead volume to 300cc.  The high COR doesn't have as much impact as the massive sweetspots.  We can swing with a little more reckless abandon, knowing that if we miss the sweetspot by an inch, we will still be in the fairway.  I remember when I really had to throttle back in fear of missing the dead center of the face. All that said, there would still be a disparity between those with power and those who lack it.  But, as with any sport, athletic ability is a great asset.  Bobby Jones was longer than most of his peers.  Hogan had incredible power at his disposal.  We all have heard about how long Jack was in his day.  There were always the Paul Runyans, the Jerry Barbers, and the Corey Pavins of the world who competed due to determination and an adept short game, but never has a short hitter dominated the sport.   Reminisce all you like, Sax, but old-fashioned golf has gone the way of the spitball and barefoot placekickers.   -Roy
Nicklaus DPT460 9º, Grafalloy Blue ProLaunch (S)
Nicklaus 35-s #3+ 13.5º, Fujikura SG Pro (S)
Adams GT #4 17º, True Temper GT (S)
Adams A2 hybrid #3 20º, True Temper GT (S)
Maxfli A-10 3-PW, TT Dynamic Gold S-300
Cleveland 588 RTG 53º & 60º
Spalding TP Mills Tour Series # 15 putter
all in an Ogio Grom golf bag.

#15 supermariodave

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 05:13 PM

There is still plenty to watch,Langer,Seve,Norman et all on the Champions Tour,Wie and Sorenstam soo,Els and Goosen finally both playing well in the same year to challenge Woods,and Phil M getting fitter.Regardless of length I still love watching it.They all play the same course,thats all that matters.Imo,wedges over 56 degrees have had a huge impact as well as length.Its one thing Venturi having  apop about length,but I do miss the creativity of players like Seve who had 53 degree sand wedges


#16 supermariodave

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 07:52 AM

The Dubai classic has been fantastic to watch,unlike the sterile PGA events I have now stopped watching.Great last round

#17 BiLumpy

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 07:50 AM

Guys, Guys-         We seem to be beating this dead horse time and time again. 1. FACT: Technology left the USGA in the dust. There will probably be no rollbacks in distance technology. 2. FACT: "Bomb and Gouge" does not win every week. 3. FACT: The FBR Open is played in Scottsdale and the ball flies farther and the fairways are firm.. The course was designed under older technology and may not be able to keep up. It is a scoring paradise. When you combine firm, fast fairways and great greens scoring will be low. 4. FACT: Wasn't it Bobby Jones who commented when watching a younger Nicklaus," He plays a game with wiich I am not familiar" ? I agree that alot of regular tour events can't hold my interest either unless Woods is playing. I am not happy with that feeling, but somehow it is special when he plays. Dubai was a good event. Why? I seemed to notice that alot of holes were doglegs and trouble was found if execution off the tee was suspect. Courses where there are a predominance of doglegs seem to create more problems, especially where the dogleg is out around 250 to 275 off the tee. That situation requires more thought as to the line chosen and if the rough is healthy, the penalty is more severe if the shot is off line. I am not a young guy, 55 to be precise and I have seen the tour from the 50's to the present. Are these players that much betterthan the older players? We can only speculate as to whether Nicklaus would be the longest player if he had 2007 equipment when he was 21 yrs old. Bill
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#18 GolfTragic

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:31 PM

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Originally posted by BiLumpy I agree that alot of regular tour events can't hold my interest either unless Woods is playing. I am not happy with that feeling, but somehow it is special when he plays.
I must admit I feel the same way.  When TW is playing the atmosphere is different and I'm glued to every move he makes. I only fast forward when those competing for second place are shown.  It's embarrassing, but I can't seem to help it.
I envy people who drink.  At least they have something to blame everything on.   

#19 latigo3

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 02:35 PM

Roy: Why is it that some have infinite wisdom and I have none? lol But could it be that they are trying to cram a size 14 triple E foot into a shoe designed to accommodate something a bit smaller? And that ain’t such an exaggeration. We have a head pro in these parts whose 15-year old son wears a size 14 shoe. And he is dad won’t permit him to hit his driver on the range.  They won’t allow the ball picker on the freeway. Sax
    

#20 supermariodave

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 06:46 AM

Bill I watched both the FBR and Dubai and Dubai  had times the excitment,the golf was better because the course required some shot making sadly lacking at the FBR,so maybe the course was just better.The scores similr,around 18 under so you are right,distance over powered the course,but these guys were having to work hard for these scores,Els only managed 71 final round


#21 cjcdaman

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 06:33 PM

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Originally posted by GolfTragic I must admit I feel the same way.  When TW is playing the atmosphere is different and I'm glued to every move he makes. I only fast forward when those competing for second place are shown.  It's embarrassing, but I can't seem to help it.
Maybe you shouldn't watch golf. Or you can continue to watch while maintaining that you are a "fan" of the game. :rolleyes:
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#22 GolfTragic

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 09:40 PM

Maybe we need an emoticon with a tongue in cheek, besides, He doesn't play every week. :p
I envy people who drink.  At least they have something to blame everything on.   



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